Wales’ housing secretary Jayne Bryant was bluntly told “you’re not listening” during a tense committee grilling over fears building safety reforms will “suppress” social housing supply.
Labour’s Lee Waters accused her of ignoring repeated, high-level warnings from the sector about pushing through a bill that risks curtailing construction amid a “housing emergency”.
A tense exchange highlighted “profound disagreement” as the minister and her officials pinned the sector’s concerns on a “misunderstanding” of the building safety bill.
Warning of a lack of policy “join up”, Mr Waters pointed to evidence from the sector that the post-Grenfell reforms risk suppressing their ability to bring forward homes for social rent.
But Ms Bryant gave little ground, insisting the average costs would be low and the Welsh Government would not solve supply problems by “allowing people to live in unsafe homes”.
‘With respect’
Mr Waters explained social landlords have warned the additional cost burden will affect their ability to borrow and the number of properties they can develop.
He asked: “Why are you so dismissive of that clear evidence from the sector?”
Ms Bryant pushed back, stating the Welsh Government speaks to the sector regularly as she gave evidence to the Senedd’s housing scrutiny committee.
But her Labour colleague replied: “With respect, that’s not my question. I don’t doubt you’re talking to the sector. The sector has given evidence to this committee that says very clearly this will suppress their ability to bring forward investment and you are not addressing that.”
Ms Bryant argued social housing supply is being addressed through other policy levers, saying: “I’m very happy to listen to them, but I do not think—”
‘Bad idea’
Mr Waters interjected: “Well, you’re not listening to them, with respect, because we’re telling you what their evidence is and you’re not engaging with it.”
He pointed to evidence from Community Housing Cymru, which warned it would cost one housing association £100,000 a year to do fire assessments for lower-risk buildings.
The former minister asked: “Why are you still insisting that the costs are trivial?”
Ms Bryant denied she was dismissing the costs as trivial, explaining a lower-risk third category with less onerous restrictions was added due to concerns about proportionality.
But Mr Waters suggested: “You’ve replaced one bad idea with another.”
He raised evidence from Trivallis housing association which warned of an extra regulatory burden and costs for lower-risk buildings already covered by fire risk assessments.
‘Awfully casual’
Pressed on whether the £100,000 figure is credible, official Steve Pomeroy said: “It’s not for me to say how they do business and what they think their costs are, but—”
Mr Waters cut in: “Well, it is for you to say. That’s the whole point of this session… we’ve had evidence, you’re saying it’s not right and you’re not telling us why.”
Mr Pomeroy, head of fire services in the Welsh Government, said: “I can’t personally see why there is £100,000 of extra cost there unless there is something that they are doing or not doing now that they maybe ought to be doing under the fire safety order.”
Mr Waters criticised the “awfully casual” accusation, with Mr Pomeroy rowing back on his suggestion that Trivallis is breaking the law. “We have no evidence to that effect,” he said.
Tania Nicholson, deputy director for housing quality, pledged to pick the issue up with Trivallis to ensure “absolute clarity” in terms of expectations under the bill.
‘Troubled’
Mr Waters said: “With respect, this is the consistent answer: ‘We’re talking to the sector. We’re listening to the sector’. But you’re not, are you?”
Ms Nicholson added: “I think there’s probably some misunderstanding in terms of the expectations under the bill and the current arrangements.”
But Mr Waters was dissatisfied: “You can’t expect us to pass a law of this gravity on the basis that there are some problems and, ‘We’ll sort it out; we’re talking to them’.
“This is law. We can’t put into law things that are going to make things worse and you’re not giving us any good reason not to.”
During the fiery exchange on Wednesday (October 22), the Labour politician concluded: “It seems there are klaxons being sounded by the sector here that the Welsh Government appears deaf to – I’m really troubled by it.”